So... one of the things that comes up a lot is the negative / positive voting mobs that get created. I understand this is a community and any time you get a group of people together, such a mix of personalities and emotions can get a bit mixed up.

One way we could deal with the whole low voting thing is to make votes transparent... so you can see who voted what. You could then hope us notice patterns and alert us to fake low vote accounts so we can bring the iron hammer of color love down on them. (or something like that)

Thoughts?

**There is nothing wrong with voting something a 1 if you genuinely don't like it. If we only wanted people to rate things a 5, we wouldn't have given you a 1-5 option. Voting low on a palette / pattern / color is not a reflection on how nice / good of a person the creator is... it is just one person's opinion about the color / combination of colors. There are probably lots of things on this site that I have rated a 1 because, to me they just don't work... that doesn't change the fact that I greatly appreciate the person who created it.**

Hehe dude if you make voting transparent no one is gonna vote 1, may as well have it be anonymous and a thumbs up/down system. That's pretty much what everyone does anyway, a vote of '5' or no vote at all.

Also people get 'in trouble' for voting 'too many' ones so unless that's gonna stop you should just bag the ability to vote 1 at all. I voted a bunch of one hearts on a bunch of palettes I didn't like and you pretty much IM'd me telling me to knock it off.

If you go through the voting threads you'll find that almost all responders are in favor of a yes/no system and take great offense at having a 1 vote happen. The social penalty for voting a 1 is already strong, but giving everyone a member to focus their weirdness on is only gonna make things worse. Having been that member I can tell you it's not fun, and in my case at least made me vote almost exclusively 5's or nothing just to keep from being hassled.

If you're concerned about fake accounts, make a new rule of 1 account per IP and you'll solve like 90% of it without members having to report anything

I don't want to sound overly negative, this site is like a total blessing to me and I think you guys do a great job overall, that's why I hang out here so much.

Interesting topic for sure. I am in favor of a system like yelp uses plus the favorite thing that is already happening here.

So, maybe users could choose from a few options:

[ ] unique [ ] interesting [ ] fabulous

something like that.

Maybe you let users flag their own palettes when the want constructive criticism.

Me? I mostly am not interested in "critique" of my palettes though I like to hear good things about them.

However, sometimes I might like critique on a combo, especially if it is something I will use for a painting.

I'm more in favor of a yes/no vote over transparent voting.. I rarely bother to vote low, the only time I do is when I think a top palette is over-rated. ;)

Several people in that sensitive subject thread mentioned requiring comments for low votes. That solution really gets to the heart of the matter for me. I don't mind low votes - some of my stuff deserves them - but I do mind low votes without comments. I'm here to learn about color, and I get nothing (but annoyed) from a silent low vote. I agree very much with what manekineko said about transparent voting simply creating targets and animosity, but perhaps requiring comments would foster an atmosphere where constructive criticism is the norm.

Honestly the whole voting thing exhausts me...
remembering to vote if I like something, and sometimes even by accident I give it a 4 instead of a 5 and I feel bad for lowering the score

Im all for simplifying like J-man and liddle-r suggested

I find comments and faving them a lot more rewarding and interesting

I see nothing wrong with the system we have now... I love anonymity. quite frankly, I like it that people don't know if I voted or not... I don't want 298347192384712934 'thank you for voting 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' messages on my page.

also, I would not like a 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' system... you don't LOVE something or HATE it. there's OK palettes... I always vote things on a Superior, Excellent, Good, Fair, and Poor basis... I'd hate having to choose either good or bad... because nothing is ever that black and white.

I say all that to say this... I think we should leave the voting situation the way it is and lighten up. (:

oh and also:
manekineko wrote:

If you're concerned about fake accounts, make a new rule of 1 account per IP and you'll solve like 90% of it without members having to report anything.

wouldn't that prevent family members on the same computer? I mean... we only have 1 desktop, and I have a little brother who may open up an account someday [or maybe not, just saying] and I was just wondering if this would if this would affect that? (: *is sheepish*

Everybody here, know that I love you to death before I say this.

But I find it exasperating that anybody cares about the values of the votes they receive. Honestly, whlie creating palettes is a rather primitive sort of "art", we all do it for artistic purposes, and should someone take notice enough to vote on one of yours at all, then you've obviously provoked a more prominent sector of the voter's brain... I pass over anything I see and find disappointing.

Some other artists (e.g., our fellow COLOURlovers) and layperson spectators will inevitably dislike your work. Whether it's lack of comprehension, disapproval of your aesthetics, or a sheerly vindictive desire to make you feel inferior, you will take criticism both destructive and constructive, and it is the responsibility of you the artist to hone your own weapon out of it. If you cannot take it, born artist or not, you probably have some personal issues to resolve before you can say you're ready for the market.

Tirades aside, you want to do away with sore feelings? Drop the yes/no concept entirely.

Allow only generic upvotes-- no numerical values, no denominations. What isn't liked will either be bypassed, or the resident trolls will have to spotlight themselves to get their point across

Some other artists (e.g., our fellow COLOURlovers) and layperson spectators will inevitably dislike your work. Whether it's lack of comprehension, disapproval of your aesthetics, or a sheerly vindictive desire to make you feel inferior, you will take criticism both destructive and constructive, and it is the responsibility of you the artist to hone your own weapon out of it.

Agreed - but if they don't leave a comment, what is there to hone?

For me this is the thing. I've never thought of 1heart as equalling "poor" or anything of the sort. Its a HEART, after all! I always thought the 5 hearts meant something like - "not bad, nice, pretty good, excellent, fabulous". After all, voting even one heart increases the rating somewhat. Why are you increasing the rating by voting one heart, if you feel the thing is "poor" or "pathetic" or whatever your private code is for that one heart?

With the present system, voting one heart means you like the thing enough to increase the rating, but you dont like it enough to increase the rating a lot. And what's negative about that?

If we found a way to make that more obvious, maybe that would help?

Out of curiousity -
Which trollish behaviour happens most on this site: featherplucking or nasty comments?

I would be careful of forcing a situation where you have to comment on a palette if you give it a low vote. Much as I agree with the sentiment that a constructive comment is more valuable!

Some people seem to think that even one 1heart vote = trollish behaviour. But it is sadly true that even well meant constructive criticism in a comment form is going to be more likely to be misunderstood by the thin skinned.

And I'm geussing that most people will deal better with a 1 heart than a "maybe that yellow is a little too mustardy my dear". Never mind a "this makes me want to throw up a little".

I can see the huge potential for drama if transparent voting was implemented. I see nothing wrong with the current system. Yes, I always give five hearts, yes, I don't understand spending time to give one heart but that doesn't mean the current system isn't valid or good. It is and it's not because we discuss it that it isn't.
As for a a thumbs up, thumbs down system - or rather a heart vs broken heart one - it wouldn't make me change the way I vote so I don't really see the point.

i'm with velveteen about the random number of "thank you for voting me 5" messages.
i'm with onebreath about the transparent voting drama.
i'm not with codename_gimmick, as i don't see combining 5 colours aside as some sort of "art" but maybe "design". if i would not, i don't believe any color theory would exist, as in art - you don't simply have rules or theories or whatsoever.

if we would not care about any appreciation or criticism, why would be here? i simply could create palettes on illustrator and just keep them in a folder.

i don't mind having low votes or all 5. i just would like to know why it isn't liked at all, which might improve my next, maybe.

in real life, when we see someone that we dislike the look, we don't tend to be brutally honest and say "oh man, you are so ugly". we just bend our words (not minds) maybe, or just simply shut up. because hurting someone is so easy and fixing might be harder. colourlovers is somewhere most of us (not me particularly) are here for just being creative, playing with the world's most precious unowned things and be happy. happy right? just to forget the day and feel something. for that matter, a silent - honest to death voting would just hurt someone in a way, you could not imagine. without feelings in a site that having the word "love" in its name, here would turn into a "science lab" where all the things going on being theory talks, creating artistic palettes and being so "cool" not to care anything else and all.

it's the "human" factor that makes here so addicting is all i want to say.
don't care for the votes?
don't care how people might respond?
don't care if you're liked or not?
so, why you might be here?

i think, maybe one of those below might help.

for the owner; "i want constructional critism/love" / "i dont want constructional critism/love" option enabling/disabling appreciation/criticism. if you enable "want", there should be another choice "require feedback for thumbs down or not".

[this also could be set as "defaults" in account options]

and there might be "thumbs down" "a heart" "thumbs up".

you "just" like it? heart it.
you don't like it somehow? thumbs down (and post a feedback why you don't, if owner requires)
you appreciate it? thumbs up. (can be selected with the "heart")
you find voting yada yada exasperating? just ignore everything above and proceed.

If a comment is required, you'll get 'thumbs down' voters leaving comments like 'aaaaaaaaaaaa' or 'dbgsudbds' so that probably won't work.

That idea about opting out of the voting system seems really solid though - maybe leave votes the way they are but let the more sensitive members remove themselves from the fray, even on a palette by palette basis.

mierlagypsy wrote:

Some other artists (e.g., our fellow COLOURlovers) and layperson spectators will inevitably dislike your work. Whether it's lack of comprehension, disapproval of your aesthetics, or a sheerly vindictive desire to make you feel inferior, you will take criticism both destructive and constructive, and it is the responsibility of you the artist to hone your own weapon out of it.

Agreed - but if they don't leave a comment, what is there to hone?

Well said-- there won't be a weapon at all in that case.
There also won't be one if you don't have negative/less-than-perfect votes to deal with.

Nobody here seems to want either.

(Ignore the tone of that remark-- that's not directed at you, of course, just an observation.)

i'm not with codename_gimmick, as i don't see combining 5 colours aside as some sort of "art" but maybe "design". if i would not, i don't believe any color theory would exist, as in art - you don't simply have rules or theories or whatsoever.

I follow your analogy, but what exactly is your point?

You also 'don't simply have rules or theories' in design-- but you deal with criticism in both arenas.

Not that you don't make some good points-- I just really didn't see one to that remark.

My opinion is that the current system is fine.

Make palettes, if people vote, nifty. If they do a low vote and leave no comment, well, ignore it. If they drop a 4 star, it probably means someone thinks you can do better or they missed the 5. There will always be trolls, usually the community takes care of it or Darius politely intervenes.

Get over the voting already... it's really just a web 2.0 popularity contest and ego rub.

To eliminate the "voting mobs" why not count only the votes from those members that have paid the annual sponsor fees they are after all the people that are supporting Colour Lovers. This would also encourage others to become sponsors, a win win situation for all concerned.

Another thought might be to require a critique when a vote is outside of the average..say for votes of two or less a critique would be required, the same would be required for votes of four or five. I'm not really sure how the critiques would be filtered but in order for the vote to count I would suspect that a critique would have to be constructive. In other words "I voted two hearts on this because I don't like it" An explanation of what is liked and what isn't liked and why or what is thought could be done differently about the color or palette being voted on.

J-man wrote:

I'm more in favor of a yes/no vote over transparent voting.. I rarely bother to vote low, the only time I do is when I think a top palette is over-rated. ;)

Hey dude, just a tip, even a low vote increases the palette's rank. It's not the average rating that matters - it's the cumulative rating - so a low vote is still boosting that palette higher.

Whilst I like the thought behind mierlagypsy's idea of a comment if you score "low", I think that should be left to the lover to give that courtesy. Not that keen on forcing people to justify themselves, cos again they probably just won't give that score to save themselves having to justify it.

That's probably a very valid point. I just think that transparent voting alone is bound to cause an all-out war, and (for me at least) it's not about the votes but the feedback. I've tried putting a little "All feedback is appreciated" note on my profile, I've tried asking for suggestions on individual palettes, and neither resulted in comments. I guess I'm not in favor of forcing votes in the abstract, either.

For now... we're leaving it as it is. The voting is just something I often think about and since this is a community I wanted to get your opinion on how it is working. I think in the lng run, we'll develop a different rating system to gather more useful trending / color popularity information and change the current rating system around a bit.

...but for now... continue loving the color as usual.

I've skimmed through this a couple times, but please forgive me if I repeat anything.

I have a love/hate relationship with the voting system.

Whenever I open a palette/color/pattern I vote for it, I feel like that’s why the voting system was put there. 9/10 times I give it a 5 heart vote because there’s something that obviously caught my eye about it and I feel like it deserves it.

I really don’t understand why someone would waste their time opening something that they didn’t like and then wasting more time giving it a bad score (and usually not even commenting)!!

I love the community here and find it very positive and uplifting (it’s literally the most positive place I’ve come along on the internet, so major props for that); however, I feel like some people just give bad ratings just to give them…no reason at all. I’m a little sensitive about my palettes and usually put a lot of time into coming up with a name and color combo that corresponds with it. I feel like it’s my little baby in a way; and while I know that not everyone will like it, I think I deserve a reason to know why if they decide to rate it low.

I’ve had many strange occurrences in the past where I’ll make, say, 3 or 4 palettes in a row then almost instantly after they’re published they all have lower scores. I feel like it’s something personal…each palette was different, yet there’s something you don’t like about all of them.

This has even been evident with colors! I don’t even know how or why someone would rate a color bad?!!? “I don’t like yellow, so I’m going to give every yellow color a bad rating” That’s ridiculous. On several occasions I’ve been in need of a color name and will name it after a team or band I like. Of course I don’t expect everyone to like said band or team but why waste your time giving it a bad vote? Honestly, who cares…it’s a color!

On a side note, when I first joined this site I was lucky in the sense that no one really voted for my work and those that did were very positive. This site takes a little while to figure out and I’ll be the first to admit that some of my beginning palettes were *cough* less than appealing to the eye. However, if I had joined and people rated my work low (when I was just trying to figure stuff out) I would be less inclined to return. I would have gotten somewhat of a negative feeling (which is obviously the complete opposite of this site). I’ve seen several newcomers with palettes rated one heart, and I wonder to myself if they get that negative feeling. Whenever I see someone new, I try to be as inviting as possible to let them know how awesome this site is.

As far as a solution to this, obviously we’re keeping it the same as it is now, and that’s fine with me. The idea of transparent voting is appealing, however I think it would definitely create some hostility on this site, which I don’t think anyone wants.

I was thinking that voting could be preference option, if you want your stuff critiqued then enable it. Or even maybe the voting system could be just for sponsors (although I don’t see the problem being resolved in that.

I agree with some of the suggestions posted above, my favorite being a required comment for a low vote (although I can imagine many people coming up with ways to avoid it). I also liked the Unique/Interesting/Fabulous voting system. It’s really unique and interesting, I’m sure the fellow lovers would love it!

Anyway, thank you for reading my rant and letting me get this off of my chest. My experience here has been nothing but amazing, my fellow lovers are incredibly sweet and talented and I’m happy to be part of this thriving community. I think of palette making as an art, and as we all know, art is in the eye of the beholder, so of course we’re not all going to agree on things, but just saying something is bad without giving any form of constructive criticism is a no no. How else are we supposed to learn and grow?

OK - I'm repeating myself here - but my only sugestion would be this.

At the moment with the present system, there is no such thing as a "bad score" or a "low vote". Even voting one heart increases the palettes rating. Not voting leaves it as it is. One heart makes its rating better.

Maybe the interface / wording could be adjusted to make this fact more obvious?

In other words - help people to understand that by voting one heart, you are actually saying "this is a little bit nice, increase its rating a little bit". And not "this sucks, lower the rating".

And this is not just my opinion, this is the way the ratings are calculated.

Klip definitely has a point... a "1" vote only serves to increase someone's "score." It is, in fact, better than being ignored if you're going for ratings or popularity. The problem with the "1" vote is that the heart-meter gets lowered making the palette or pattern falsely appear less popular or appreciated. So, just get rid of the heart-meter feature and people can vote how they please without any hurt feelings.

What isotope says makes sense. Maybe the way the vote is being shown visually is influencing people's perceptions? Maybe there should be something like - "staying the same", "going up a little", "going up a lot"?

As a newcomer, I can understand the confusion about rating. Personally, I've never worried much about what ratings other people give to my palettes etc. As the old Latin adage goes: "De gustibus non est disputandum" ("Tastes are not to be discussed"). Same with color.

However, I have been curious about why some works of mine have gotten less than "stellar" ratings. After reading previous posts, I can now see the way the rating works here: 1 heart means "a bit of love", not "poor". The more hearts we give, the deeper the love. In other words, there's no such thing as hate or no love in hearts. The only way to show we don't love a color, palette or pattern is by not rating it at all.

No rating can also mean that whoever didn't vote was too lazy to, wasn't sure about how many hearts to give, was in a hurry, or simply forgot to.

Just because someone doesn't love a palette or color of yours a lot doesn't mean that they're trying to ruin your reputation. Get over it.

Again, back to the info/visual conflict. It is certainly something I struggled when I was first on here.

At that time to me 1 heart = it is likable enough to give it a little love

However, after receiving some 1 hearts... ick! I didn't like it.

As someone mentioned above maybe it is a meter instead. Maybe it is a heart that gets filled with red. Maybe a 1 vote fills it a little and 5 votes fills it the most.

The question then, is do you allow "negative" votes so that the heart drains? (that sounds so sad)

Me? I like the system of just not voting for stuff that doesn't catch my interest.

Wow, I was unaware that this was such a....problem? Topic?

I love looking at the votes I get, low or high. It is constructive to me saying either 'lovers generaly like this more/less'.

I like the idea of having a heart meter. The votes could just add up, but never subtract. Just thoughts...

I never thought to put in my thoughts on this, but the way I look at it is:

There's so many palettes, colors, patterns and so little time.
It would take forever to vote like or dislike on a scale to every one. Commenting takes a lot of thought and I leave it to those that strike me. I ignore the rest or ad them to my favorites if I have less time. I figure others do the same. Personally, I feel that voting is not that important and wouldn't be hurt of it was removed. Comments mean the most to me. If all I get is a vote and no comment, I feel the person didn't like it enough to comment or add it to their favorites.

I never cared for voting anyways. Nobody seems to vote even on other sites that much, about pictures, music, etc...

Commenting is the most important way to show someone you love their work. It's more personal and it really can change a persons mood. Nobody just wants a rating without a comment. I feel though I could do without ratings and have a ton of comments in its place.

interesing idea to not have voting...